Updated 6 July 2016:
I have just published a 750 page eBook that follows the challenges, frustrations and successes of building a house in Thailand from the very start of us buying the land through to moving in and beyond. You will be part of our building team for every day of construction and I will share many do’s and don’ts all designed to save you time, money, sleepless nights or all three. This book is a must have as part of your research on the subject of building in Thailand and you can find it HERE.
I thought that I would write a separate post on the subject of windows for those heavy duty readers who are following this part of the blog to get ideas for their own build in Thailand at some stage. Windows have been and continue to be the hardest aspect of the build to date. I have complicated matters by sticking to a decision I made very early after moving to noisy early morning Isaan that the bedrooms would have double glazing no matter what the cost. Well the “no matter what the cost” has come back to haunt me and the double glazing route has made my life a lot more difficult than selecting a single glazed option.
There are a number of issues surrounding double glazing (DG) in Isaan. Firstly getting double glazing is not something you can ask the local village window guy to throw together. Done correctly DG is a complex thing and it seems for anything approaching cost effectiveness is best done using uPVC, which just to remind you stands for unplasticised polyvinyl chloride. All the suppliers for DG I have found only provide it in this format. The benefits are listed as follows:
Low maintenance – White or coloured uPVC window frames don’t need painting or sealing, significantly reducing maintenance over their life time. They are easily cleaned with water and detergent.
Tough and durable – uPVC is a very durable material used in water and sewer pipes for at least 100 years. Vinyl windows are so durable that the vast majority of them installed over the past 25 years are still in use. Good quality uPVC windows and doors are tested for ultra violet resistance to ensure they won’t fade in the harsh sun.
Rot resistant – uPVC does not rot, and is resistant to corrosion.
Thermal comfort – Unlike metals, uPVC is non-conductive, meaning its use in window frames does not transfer heat and therefore contributes to a more consistent internal temperature in a building. The combination of uPVC frames and double glazing makes for highly energy efficient windows.
Acoustic insulation – Double-glazed uPVC windows and doors are able to cut down noise by as much as 70%.
Resistant to salt erosion – uPVC is resistant to corrosion caused by salt-laden air making them ideal for coastal properties.
High security – uPVC windows incorporate multi locking systems providing a high level of security for homes or businesses. Most uPVC window locking systems lock at multiple points all around the sash and frame.
Recyclable – uPVC can be recycled as often as 10 times. Where they have been commonly used for the past 30 years, such as in Europe, uPVC windows and doors can be, and are, recycled at the end of life.
Provided by a rather biased source the Vinyl Council of Australia – website HERE.
Now if living in Pattaya, Phuket or Bangkok a local supplier of uPVC double glazed windows/doors is no problem. Thailand has enough farang living in these areas probably from Europe, as double glazing is still largely a mystery to most Australian as well as Thai builds, that there are a good number of purchasing options these days.
Living in Isaan, a largely rural and less sophisticated region, the demand for double glazing and in some cases even for glass windows, is pretty limited! What this means is that to get a range of quotes I had to source companies in the South and get them to include delivery costs to the North East.
The result of my research so far looks like this:
Window cost comparison.
NOTE: Global House is for single glass throughout the house as they don’t stock DG and doesn’t include install. EK Decorate = Windsor Windows in Udon Thani and doesn’t include screens – still to be costed. Add say 20,000 THB.
You will note the costs for both double and single glazing is fairly consistent across the suppliers except for PSD, which when you add the VAT into the cost, which the others didn’t list separately, is more expensive. However the glass/spacer mix wasn’t as consistent. PSD, website HERE, offered a 6-9-5 combination, that is 6mm glass, 9mm gap and 5 mm glass as did Deku, website HERE. I believe the mix in glass thickness is a good idea when the object is to reduce noise. EuroPVC, website HERE, offered a 6-9-6, which missed the brief on reducing noise while EK Decorate, Thai website HERE, a 5-6-5, which is down on spec compared to the others.
The other major problem is that Ming, my builder, doesn’t do window installs. He tells me most people buy locally and the installation comes with the windows and that’s the way he likes it. In my case if I order from the South installation is a larger extra cost, if available, to bring the supplier’s labour here with the window delivery. I have read horror stories of installs where even the “expert” labour was used and the end job was rubbish. The risk is higher using someone this end especially when talking expensive DG units. I saw a local install the other day where ordinary galvanized self tapping screws were just drilled through the sides of the windows to attach them to the window opening! Not the best look.
In an Australian brick veneer build – timber frame and brick cladding – the timber frame is built the windows fitted into the frame and then the external brickwork fitted around the windows. In Thai builds the window openings are formed from the concrete walls and the windows have to fit into the space. It is an operation I would prefer to see done locally where the opening is measured by the supplier and the windows built to fit rather than hoping the two match at install.
The follow-on cost problem is that having been “forced” to select a uPVC supplier for the bedroom DG windows/sliding doors it is best if I match the rest of the house windows. I would have been quite happy with powder coated aluminium frames or cheaper uPVC from Global but the uPVC profile from the Southern companies look pretty chunky and I am not willing to compromise with a split-personality windowed house!
This is all before you get into the whole area of where the window “profiles” are sourced from, China, Thailand, Europe or designed to “German standards”!
My preference is a local supplier, who can work with the builder to get the window openings right and then install. Any future problems are then easier to fix, maybe. However this limits me to Windsor and they are expensive for the lower spec option they quoted for. I am returning to Udon Thani tomorrow to explore a couple of further options.
I will report back on my final decision as soon as I have made one!
Here is some useful information on using windows for sound reduction thanks to www.stegbar.com.au. The section on STC and how the ear perceives a reduction in noise is especially interesting. The paragraph on double glazing or IGU sort of questions the usefulness of the 6mm glass/ mm gap and 5mm glass window profile, which is what I have been offered.
Noise reduction refers to the amount of sound which is removed as it passes through a closed window or a wall.
However no matter how good the window is at keeping noise out, if it is not installed and sealed properly during construction, noise will still penetrate the home – all air gaps must be sealed off to ensure that a window will achieve the best noise reduction it can.
The Sound Transmission Class (STC) reflects the amount of noise that is reduced when sound passes through the window. So if the noise outside is 70dB and inside it is 40dB, the window is said to have an STC rating of 30. Normally the human ear cannot detect a 1-2dB change in sound. However a 10dB decrease in the sound is subjectively heard by the human ear as a halving of the sound – e.g. a 40dB noise seems half as loud as a 50dB noise. The average spoken conversation makes a 50dB noise, while common street traffic and neighbourhood sounds make about 70dB noise.
Sound waves are what carry noise into a home. To achieve noise reduction you must disrupt the sound waves as they travel through the windows. Using standard glass and window options you will be able to disrupt a sound wave.
Thicker glass – the further the sound wave has to travel through the density of the glass, the more likely it is to drop some of the sound waves. Thicker glass is often the best solution to reduce low frequency sounds like common traffic and neighbourhood noise.
Laminated glass – the vinyl interlayer will impact on the sound waves, but as laminated glass usually comprises two panels of equal thickness glass, the sound waves do not have to alter and therefore travel through relatively unscathed. Laminated glass will perform only slightly better than single glazing of equal thickness.
Insulated glass units – the key to achieving significant sound wave disruption in an IGU is to have as large an air gap as possible (less than 12mm air gap will provide an STC no better than thick glass); and to have the two panels of glass vary in thickness by at least 50% (so a 10mm panel on one side and a 5mm on the other).
Secondary window – for heavy traffic and aircraft noise a second window with an air space of at least 100mm is the only viable solution to significantly reduce the noise. The use of different thickness glass is recommended, with one of the windows glazed with 10mm glass is ideal.
Thanks for reading.
Thanks for the post Tony. Still reading avidly. Started my build and am planning to go see the local window guy this week.
I don’t have the DG issue so it should be fairly straightforward for me except for sliding doors on a bathroom and doors for built in wardrobes. Also I am trying to get away from the tiny high bathroom windows and go with something more “airy” but screened. I ran out of ideas since I haven’t seen any of the wind out windows I had in Canada here.
But it’s good to go in armed with some pricing even if it’s not for exactly the same windows.
Good luck on your choices. I don’t know if thick single glazed glass would cut down the noise significantly. Having lived in a Thai village I appreciate your dilemma. Dogs, neighbors, music, motorbikes, roosters, the 6 a.m. announcements and the wedding/funeral and every other kind of multiple day party. It’s a noisy country for those of us who came from from sparsely populated large lads.
Chris.
Good luck Chris. I hope it all goes well. If you find a solution for the wardrobe sliding doors that might be available this way would you please let me know as I am having them made for our bedrooms.
There is some advice on the web that suggests thicker glass might be as effective as DG unless you get a big gap between window glass. I have just added some more information from an Aussie window company to the post on that topic. Other places say that thicker is good for reducing low frequency sounds but not so good at the wider range of noises we get here. The bloody roosters wouldn’t be classified as low frequency! Maybe no windows and one of those large tropical rainforest photo wall hangings might be the answer.
Earplugs????
Cheap and effective solution. If all else fails……. 🙂
Do you no some One in bangsan who make Doors and Windows in alu pvc
I am sorry – I don’t know where Bangsan is. Is it in Khon Kaen province?
When researching windows I only looked in Udon Thani and Windsor is the best option there. If you read the blog or buy my eBook you will find details of the two places in Udon that will make and fit uPVC windows. I am sure they would ship to Bangsan if it is in the general area. I ended up buying from DeKu in Pattaya and they fitted as I wrote in my blog. I wouldn’t recommend them 100% but generally they supply a quality product. More expensive than Windsor. Global and Thai Watsadu supply windows too but they are not high quality. You will have to arrange fitting. It all depends what sort of budget you are working to.
Good luck with your project. Tony
Dear Tony,
Who did you pick to do your windows in the end ?
And why ?
Hi Ian. Sorry for the delay. We have been out of town for a couple of days.
I ended up with DeKu windows, which at the time was the best I could find that fitted MY specific criteria. I put the MY in capital letters because if you read the full story on the windows HERE you will find others disagree with my choice. However as I keep repeating my criteria excluded many of the other options. I wanted double glazed for the bedrooms (which cut out the local village type shops), someone who could both supply and install the windows in Isaan (which excluded some of the bigger southern suppliers) and I didn’t have a big budget.
The main choices that I could find were Windsor, based in Udon Thani, and DeKu, based in Chonburi but willing to provide a team to deliver and install at a reasonable cost. I am not completely happy with DeKu as the blog post shows but it is a product that does the job and was the best I could find at the time (early 2015). There maybe other choices available now if you go looking. Ian if you are building in one of the bigger southern places, Phuket, Pattaya or anywhere closer to Bangkok, you will have a far wider selection of window suppliers than I did.
Read the other post and I think it will answer all your questions. If not write to me again.
Tony
Hi Tony,
Thanks for all your work in the blog.
It is truly a public service and well written.
Regarding your Deku sliding screen door panels.
You mentioned initial reservations upon ordering them.
Now, after some time, what is your evaluation of the sliding screen door panel.
I am considering a Deku two panel glass slider with a third screened panel for a high traffic area.
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
JK
Thank you very much John.
I am still pretty happy with DeKu. As I have said before there could well be better suppliers out there but I couldn’t find them at a price I could afford who were willing to send a team to install them in my part of Isaan.
If you are building in the south near one of the bigger centers like Bangkok/Phuket/Chonburi then you could well have a selection to choose from and end up with a better quality product. A reader has recommended this company in Pattaya but he may own the business 🙂 http://europvc.co.th/ I did get a quote from them but they could only supply to Isaan, not install.
My observations on the DeKu sliding doors are:
– They are very chunky and heavy units with the 6 mm glass. I like the look but some may find them too bulky.
– I suspect you could get smoother wheels (probably more expensive) because although they slide fine it is not exactly a one finger job. Children would find the door hard to open (which may be an advantage for you in either keeping them in or out!)
– the insect screens are made from plastic and they could definitely be better. They aren’t that sturdy and don’t slide very smoothly. Having said that I come from Australia (as you may) where insect screens are a standard on all houses and the design has been perfected over time. DeKu screen do the job though and I have seen screens provided by another supplier and they were even worse.
– My main complaint is that the sealing of the doors and windows is poor quality unless the design has been changed. It’s the gap at the bottom where the fixed and sliding panels meet that’s the problem. This is definitely NOT German design and needs to be re-designed. DeKu made an alteration when they came to replace a window this year but I still get the occasional small gekko inside and some flying ants in season.
In conclusion – As always you tend to get what you pay for. These are not German components windows provided by a large high quality supplier for which you’ll pay double or more than I did. I have a friend who paid a million baht for windows and doors in a house not that much larger than mine. However DeKu are way above the cheap alternatives you will find in the building suppliers – Global House etc. So not a ringing endorsement of DeKu but for my requirements and limitations they are doing the job pretty well.
John, I am happy to try and answer any more specific questions based on my reply.
Cheers Tony
Great post Tony. i have one question are the D/G units internally beaded or externally. regards
Hi,
Your rates are surprising, it is easy to find rates more than 50% lower than those you indicate in your table.
And of course good quality with several years warranty.
I do not want to controversy but the upvc sales market is a world of sharks and the high price is not a guarantee of quality but more often of the commercial aspect.
The raw material may be the best in the world but if the assembly plant as well as these employees are bad your product will not be worth much.
There are also those who sell under their brand but produce nothing, just a quality story from everywhere except Thailand.
The upvc is not called for nothing “white gold”, the Europeans know very well that it is a very juicy market where the margins are often ×2 and sometime much more.
My advice, avoid Thai companies held by Westerners.
In addition it is quite easy now to find double glazing even in the depths of Thailand, at a decent price and good quality.
Hi Leo.
I love a comment that starts like yours because no coffee is required to get my heart rate increased early morning 🙂 Well done Tony. You bought a product for double the price any window company would have done it for. I have seen your windows in place Tony and the ones I bought in my house (I presume you are speaking from personal experience) are exactly the same if not better but I got mine for half the price you paid!
What does that generalised statement mean? Of course you can buy windows for half the price I paid just like you can buy a car for half the cost I paid for my Nissan NP300. I could have bought non-UPVC from my local window maker (rubbish) or pre-made UPVC from Global House, Thai Watsadu or any of the other DIY type suppliers for a faction of the cost I paid but they are lower quality. I did buy a sliding door for a storage area from Global and it WAS a third of the cost of what I bought from DeKu. It does the job but that’s falling into the philosophy of Thai building. I could have had electrical wiring running down the walls at half the cost too but would I want to? As you have read my blog you know that’s not a level I aim to achieve. Would I have that window in my home – NO WAY.
I actually wanted UPVC, if I didn’t I wouldn’t have bought it and would have got aluminium instead, so once again it’s like saying car manufacturers rip you off, why didn’t you buy a motorcycle! I wanted a car not a bike 🙂
I am sure there are good Thai manufacturers as well as those run by farang. Finding them when living in the backwaters of Isan is not easy. I tried Windsor windows based in Udon Thani. A Thai manufacturer run by Thais. Their UPVC product was OK but equally expensive as what I bought and I still think my product was better. Do I recommend people buy DeKu – no. My blog post is only a report on what I did and why. Everything I write about is only based on my personal experience I keep saying that I don’t set myself up as an expert in anything. For someone living in Bangkok or the more farang oriented places there could well be equally good products around. I didn’t have the luxury of wandering around the south looking. I also wanted the windows to be fitted by the manufacturer, which was a hurdle living where we do. DeKu have given me a decent product and they came and fitted and it was within my budget.
It may well be easy NOW to find people making double glazing all over Thailand (I doubt it as it is a specialist product more suited to reducing noise, an aspect of life here that doesn’t worry most Thai people). Windsor made them but much the same cost and I wanted different sized glass for the two panes, which I read gave a better noise suppression. Marginal? Probably but that’s what I wanted and DeKu offered that – Windsor didn’t.
So in summary. If you’d like to let my readers know where you got quality non-UPVC alternatives that give the same solid look and feel of a good UPVC product at half the price I am sure they would be grateful. I always support people looking around to get the best price for whatever their criteria is. Unfortunately with windows, like everything else, you get what you pay for.
I see you have posted a positive comment on the garden so I am sure you didn’t intend this one just to be a negative whinge (Pattaya bar-hugger experts get right up my nose) but wanted to make a contribution to the subject, even though you start your comment like a bar-hugger. I have a few people in contact with me building in the next year (Chiang Rai, Si Bun Ruang, Korat just off the top of my head). If you can supply the name of the firm you used on your place that matches the quality I have at half the price then they will be very grateful.
Cheers.
Tony
Dear Tony,
I never wanted to attack you personally saying that you paid too much or not enough, I refer to your table
Do not make me say what I did not say…
I give an opinion that seems to me not to smell the beer of Pattaya !
I try absolutely not to be right but as I said the price does not guarantee anything.
Even if you had the best product in the world, a mediocre craftsman can badly install it .
The most expensive does not mean the best, the cheapest is s..t etc…
The buyer himself is also a factor to take into account on the price he will pay.
As you can see I speak in a general way about a subject and it’s not an attack on you.
All the best