Covered in detail or mentioned in this post:
Non-Immigration OA Visa, 90 day reporting and re-entry permit.
Important Update 18 March 2017:
I have just been to the Australian Embassy in Bangkok to get my annual stat declaration confirmation of income. It is the first time that they have asked to sight verification documents of the income I had stated I was receiving. Previously no verification was necessary. Luckily I had printed out a statement from my Australian superannuation fund and had my bank book available as well. They didn’t do an in depth review but be warned that you should have back-up documents available just in case.
I also had to provide income verification documents to Immigration in Udon Thani as well as the Embassy stat dec, which was also a first. Be prepared.
Update 18 November 2015:
A reader of the blog has just completed a Laos border run to extend his permission to stay in Thailand by 12 months based on an OA Retirement Visa. You can find his comprehensive description of the process HERE.
Update: 6 September 2015 – I have published a useful addition to this topic which takes all the comments in this post and my and reader’s replies plus additional information provided, edits them to remove non-relevant wording and sets them out in a far more readable format. Essential reading for people looking for O-A Retirement information. You can find the post HERE.
Do you like the typical retirement image above? I couldn’t resist. How many of us look this good after a lifetime of work and have teeth like that! For many of us blokes in Thailand the partner is more likely to be a glorious mocha colour!
The information for the first section of this post was originally published in my “12 Months in Thailand” review HERE and is Australian centric although I think applies elsewhere too.
Please make sure you check this information as there have been some changes made to visas as the new post-coup government tightens up on farang staying in Thailand. More aimed at the tourist visa but you never know.
The best visa you can get for a long term stay here is called an Non-Immigration OA or retirement visa. There is an O visa, which doesn’t have the re-entry permit attached, however if you add the multiple re-entries option it is then called an OA visa and is good for 12 months. The only stipulation being that you report to the local Immigration Office every 90 days (or you can have a go at doing it online – read my post HERE. It works for some not others) and advise them of your address – see next topic below.
Many people are unable to obtain the visa because it does require you to be over 50 years old and to prove an income of at least 65,000 THB a month, or have 800,000 THB in a Thai bank.
It is best to obtain the visa in Australia rather than apply in Thailand before your tourist visa expires, even though you will require a medical certificate from your doctor and a police check. I also found that the requirement to have the equivalent of 800,000 THB in a Thai bank for at least three months, if applying in Thailand, wasn’t required in Australia. A bank statement confirming that I had the money in an Australian bank without a defined period of deposit was sufficient.
The big plus for getting an OA Visa in Australia is that if you leave Thailand during your initial 12 months and then return before its expiry Immigration will stamp your passport at the airport for another 12 months from the date of arrival. That is you don’t need to go through the whole process of proving income/deposit in Thai bank to renew. You automatically get another 12 months.
As I returned to Thailand after my Australian trip on 26 March, and my visa was due to expire in May, I was automatically extended to 25 March 2015 without any further paperwork. This is what it looks like – that little stamp on the new departure card saves a whole heap of work and money:
The departure card stamped for another 12 months.
It is always hard to believe when bureaucracy works in your favour so I checked at Immigration in Chiang Mai soon after I got back and they confirmed this situation. I have since had a 90 day report without any problems so it is as I have told you.
UPDATE as at 15 December 2014
A follower of the blog wrote to me recently with some answers he got to visa questions and I thought they were worth sharing. Thanks Jay and Darel at Pattaya Expats Club for the answers in bold.
“I’m hoping you can clarify for me, when is the correct date to apply for a retirement visa extension?
My O-A Visa obtained in NZ is for multiple entry and expires 17th August 2015.
On arrival, my passport was stamped with permission to stay 9th
September 2015, which is beyond the original visa date. Correct – the Visa and the permission to stay stamp are two different things – the Visa allows you entry and once the Visa expires, it is no longer valid for entry.
In theory, if I were to travel overseas and return in July 2015, I would get a permission to stay (arrival) stamp until July 2016 (1 year) Correct – since the visa is a multiple entry O-A visa, you receive a one year permission to stay each time you re-enter Thailand BEFORE the expiration of the Visa.
This being the case, is a retirement renewal or extension required before the original visa expires in 2015, NO or before the permission to stay (entry stamp) expires in 2016? YES
I am aware that when I travel after 17th August 2015, I will need a re-entry permit before I leave, Correct – once the O-A Visa expires it no longer allows another entry – so to keep your permission to stay “alive” you need a re-entry permit if you leave Thailand after the Visa Expiration date that’s all I’m clear on.”
90 Day Reporting
Update 23 June 2015
The 90 day reporting can now be done online although I haven’t tried it. The link is HERE. Scroll through the conditions and then click on ACCEPT at the end. You will then be taken to the online form.
Update 6 Sept 2015: The Immigration office has moved. See information at the end of this post HERE.
My original post:
A requirement of your OA visa is that you report your address every 90 days to Thai Immigration. In Chiang Mai they are located in a chaotic little building next to the airport .
Chiang Mai Immigration.
The office is woefully inadequate for the huge number of farang of all nationalities that queue here every day. I read once that Immigration is caught up in some sort of political dispute and no additional resources have been made available. Maybe true.
Outside the main Immigration office hut.
What is definitely true is that the Thai Immigration staff do a stirling job displaying complete professionalism and patience way beyond anything I could do in the same circumstances.
HINT: If you are driving the carpark at Immigration is always full. You can park across the road at the petrol station. It will cost you 20 THB for as long as it takes.
A 90 report requires you to fill out a tm47 form or maybe better get the latest HERE in case it has changed. The form is pretty straightforward with only a couple of slightly tricky bits.
TM47 the tricky bits!
Your visa is NON-IMM, Entered Thailand…..By is your flight number, the Arrival Card No is actually your Departure card No! I searched through all my documents the first time I had to do one of these before finding online that they are looking for the departure card number. You don’t have an arrival card.
The other slightly confusing thing is the definitions for the address. Your Lane/Road is a Soi number, if you have one. Tambol is like a suburb, Amphur the name for the collection of suburbs and Province like a state. So my address here is 379/9, Soi 3, Nongjom, San Sai, Chiang Mai. This is equivalent to my old Australian address of 9 Lane/road = Balala Place, Tambol = Isabella Plains, Amphur = Tuggeranong, Province = ACT. or say 32 Plateau Parade, Blaxland, NSW.
You will sometime come across forms that abbreviate the names, which also completely confused me early on. Instead of the above they might just have T, A and P for Tambol, Amphur and Province.
For those Trivial Pursuit questions Thailand has 7055 Tambols, 878 Amphoe + 50 in Bangkok called Khet and 76 Provinces.
Along with your TM47 form, and you can pick up copies at Immigration if you don’t have access to a printer, you will need:
- Photocopy of front face page in your passport;
- Photocopy current Visa or departure card if you are on an extension to an OA and the original visa has been superseded;
- Photocopy last entry stamp from immigration;
- Photocopy last 90 report card ; and
- Photocopy of your departure card if you haven’t already.
- I also include a copy of the front page of my house lease confirming my address.
They have photocopy facilities at Immigration for a minimal fee. There is no charge for a 90 report. Get the documents correct and the process usually takes very little time. Maybe I have just been lucky with timing.
Re-entry permit
Warning – if you are in the renewal period of your OA visa then you need to get a single or multiple re-entry permit if you leave the country during the extended period and intend to return. Your original OA Visa was for multiple re-entries, your extension is not.
To get a re-entry stamp complete a TM8 form HERE, attach a passport sized photo and:
- Photocopy of front face page in your passport; and
- Photocopy of your departure card with the latest re-entry stamp.
A 1,000 THB fee applies for a single re-entry or 3,800 for multiple.
The re-entry stamp – single entry ensuring I can stay until 25 March 2015.
In Chiang Mai this simple stamp took over 1 1/2 hours to obtain so take a book.
Step 1 – Go to the information counter underneath the TV and get a number.
The Information Booth under TV.
Step 2 – Sleep or read a book. The digital display automatic number system – in red above – allows for three streams of work being processed by Immigration so jumps around. The re-entry permit counter is on the far left – counters 1 & 2.
Step 3 – Once your number is displayed go to the counter, hand over your passport + forms + 1,000/3,800 THB. Go and sit down. Sleep or read book.
Step 4 – Your name will be called. Go back to the re-entry counter and have your photo taken (this may be a new requirement as I haven’t seen it mentioned before – maybe the photo guy was busy before and it is normally included in Step 3 – who knows). Go and sit down. Sleep or read book.
Step 5 – Your name will eventually be called again. Go to information counter and collect your passport and receipt. Head to nearest bar to recover.
Thanks for reading.
New Immigration Office in Chiang Mai:
I received an email today advising me that the Chiang Mai immigration office has moved from its previous location close to the airport to Promenada Mall. A great idea as there must be somewhere in the mall you can get a strong drink after surviving/not surviving the Thai visa experience.
The new immigration office in Chiang Mai.
A useful ThaiVisa forum topic on the new office can be found HERE. ThaiVisa is a great resource but you will need to wade through neverending whining from expats who would be far better off being a pain back in their own country rather than cluttering up our lives and forums 🙂
Thanks for reading.
My thanks to:
http://buddhahoodculture.com/one-will-tell-chiang-mai-immigration-office/
Hey Tony..bill Stewart from Cairns..is it advisable to apply for the retirement Visa in Australia or get it in Thailand…thks
Hi Bill. Sorry to be slow in responding. We have had visitors the last few days.
I would suggest you ask this question on a very active visa advice site such as ThaiVisa rather than me. My blog is not intended to be one for offering specialised advice in a general sense because I only report on the things that I do every day. My post on the OA Visa (Retirement) is very out of date now, and because I only now do an annual extension, I haven’t had to repeat that original process, so haven’t reported on it. Back in the day the benefit of getting the visa in your home country was that if you left Thailand and returned before the expiry of the original visa, then you received a 12 month extension automatically when you came back into the country. That was an odd aberration that many people didn’t know about at the time but I have no idea if it is still applicable. Worth asking the question on ThaiVisa.
I am sorry I can’t be of more help but I would hate to give you incorrect or out of date information on such a vital topic. Ask me about farming in Isan and I’m your man!
Good luck and thanks for reading the blog.
Tony
Hi Tony
Great to read the above and associated comments. I am wondering if any of your contributors have further advice on the blood tests required and their approximate costs. Additionally, if anyone can recommend a doctor familiar with this in Canberra. Cheers Craig
Hi Craig.
From memory my GP just signed off on the medical as he had been seeing me for a while as he felt it was pretty unlikely that leprosy, tuberculosis, drug addiction, elephantiasis and third stage syphilis would apply to me 🙂 So far he’s been proved right!
Hi Tony
I am in the process of applying for a retirement visa and they are asking for an income declaration with the application. Not sure what they except and how to go about it.
I noticed that in one of your earlier posts 18th march 2017 you made mention that you did a stat declaration confirmation of income.
What is the requirement for this, do you fill out a Stat Dec stating what your income is and then just have it verified by the Australian Embassy?
I have a letter from my accountant detailing my current income and my projected income for the next year. Also, have a copy of my last Tax assessment as well as bank statements for the last 6 months showing the income each week. Could you please tell me how you think I should go about it?
Many thanks
Regards John
Hi Raymond.
I am not a visa expert having only experienced the process as it directly relates to my situation. My understanding is that the stat dec is what they are looking for and the other documents may be required for income verification, both by the embassy (a new requirement when I last went there earlier this year – before they never bothered) and by Thai Immigration (a very cursory glance at bank statements last time I did it). The Aussie embassy in Bangkok are very efficient and it only takes a few minutes. All you need to write is “I declare that my income is greater than 65,000 baht a month”. I believe the embassy have increased their fees for a service that should be provided free to citizens……now around 1,700 baht but it’s a small price to pay (plus Thai fees of course) for 12 months residence in this great country.
Let me know how you go as others will be interested in your experience.
Good luck and welcome to Thailand.
Tony
Hi Raymond , correct as Tony says, two mates renewed in last 3 months and no check of supporting documents by either Embassy or Immigration. If you have same tho by all means have it ready. Agree the cost of Stat Dec free in Oz is a disgrace, shame Aust Gov!! PS recently did trip to KL and return to activate second 12 months of multi entry visa, great !
Do you mind if I quote a few of your articles as long ass I provide credit andd sources back to your website?
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Hi Tony, I have a question in regards to the loop hole extension of the retirement visa. If you come into the country towards the end of your initial year long retirement visa and get the second year, does it have an impact on when you go to renew again? Not sure if that is clear, but what I am trying to ask is, if you have used the second year, when you want to extend to a third year, do you have to go back to your country to get a whole new one year retirement visa, because the initial one is so past it’s use by date? or can you still get a new one year retirement visa in Thailand? And if you can, presumably you have to apply about a week before the last “stay until” stamp date.
Hi Annelies. I am not a visa expert and my personal experience is a little out of date now so it might be worth exploring other websites that specialise on visas to make sure the rules haven’t changed.
In your situation I take it that you are already in the country, will leave towards the end of the expiry date of the original visa and then return prior to the expiry date? If so based on my experience you will get a 12 month extension starting from the date of your return and your next extension application will be due in 12 months time, less admin time. You only ever get one initial visa unless it lapses and everything else is an extension to that visa you don’t need/get a new visa each 12 months.
Your third year here will be a 12 month extension and you don’t need to leave the country to do that. If you have a O or OA visa (retirement) then you need to provide proof of income or money in a Thai bank or a combination of both plus some other paperwork. Very straightforward and lots of information on the web. I base mine on income, which means an annual trip to the Australian embassy in Bangkok to get a statutory declaration. My extension is processed in Udon Thani and takes less than one hour if all the paperwork is correct.
I hope that helps.
Good luck Tony
26 March 2017
Many Australians use Notarial services of the Embassy Consular team in Bangkok or the bimonthly Outreach Program to Chiang Mai to complete documentation for their annual visa renewals.
The Australian Embassy has clarified that if you complete and are signing a Statutory Declaration claiming an income amount in support of a retirement or other visa, you are not required to provide proof of that income. It should be noted that it is an offence to make a false declaration on a statutory declaration,
I didn’t know that the embassy visited Chiang Mai bimonthly. I don’t think that was an option when we were living there in 2013/14. I wish they would come this way to Udon Thani or Khon Kaen like the US embassy.
Readers should note that although a stat dec should be enough in itself, because of its legal status, the last time I got one at the Australian embassy in Bangkok I did have to provide proof of income and this was the first time such a request was made (my third time). It would be a good idea to at least take your financial records along to support your income declaration just in case.
Thanks Barry.
Hi Tony – you provide the best info online regarding Retirement visas (and many other topics) so I would like to ask a couple more questions. I have a multiple entry non-immigrant O-A visa. I will have a 90 day reporting due on Jan 17, 2017 with the following one being approx Apr 17, 2017.
1) If I take a trip to Vietnam in February and return on Feb 15, 2017 will my next 90 day reporting be due on Apr 17 or May 15?
2) Since I have a multiple entry non-immigrant O-A visa will I have to get a Re-entry permit prior to leaving to Vietnam in February?
I am also hoping to be able to visit you and your family when my cousin comes here to visit at the beginning of the year. My cousin is an avid gardener and he is eager to see what Gaun has done and check out the family farm.
Thank you very much for any info you can provide.
Joe
Hi Joe.
Thanks for the positive comment.
(1) 90 days from your return on 15 Feb 2017 is 16 May 2017. Leaving the country gets you a new departure card and number on your return (the one they give you on the plane), which will match up with your reporting on the TM47 form when you fill it in for the new 90 day reporting date. If you are travelling with a Thai national partner remember you can go through the Thai arrivals at the airport immigration, which will save you time.
(2) A multiple entry visa means just that. You will be able to return without getting a separate entry permit.
We look forward to seeing you and your cousin next year. Gaun loves to show people her garden and the farm.
Cheers. Tony
Thank you so much Tony – I appreciate your help.
Joe
Hi Tony, Great help you have been, after finally applying for retirement visa via mail to embassy in Canberra, all went without a hitch, as of 30,09,2016, anyone need current feedback love to help cheers Ray Townsville
Great to hear to found the information useful and got the result you wanted. I generally find that Thai bureaucracy is pretty OK as long as you give them exactly what they want. Much the same as any other country. Thanks very much for the comment. Many people read the information I provide and many never bother to report back. Much appreciated.
Good luck with your new adventure. If ever out in the north east please let us know.
Tony
If I am applying for my OA visa in Australia. Can I show that I have the 800,000baht in my Australian bank account ? And if not, how do I open a thai bank account from here in Australia ?
Yes. The money doesn’t have to be in Thailand if applying for the visa outside the country.
Tony
Tony I have 4 trips to Thailand in recent years from Perth in Western Australia. I am 74 y/o and have all the required documents for a Retirement Visa. My income is by way of the Aussie aged pension and I have a amount significantly higher them the required amount in an ANZ allocated pension fund. The Aussie pension and the amount paid from the allocated pension is just short of the Bt65000 P/M required I really don’t want to take money out of the fund as I cant return it ( it’s tax free). As the capital of this fund is much higher then the amount required (Bt 800.000) is it likely that the Thai Immigration would accept this as sufficient to satisfy the Bt 800,000 requirement or would I need to withdraw the money from the fund and put it in a ANZ savings Bank account which pays 0.1 % interest. Not good
Hi David. A mix of income and money in the bank is acceptable too. Let’s say your current monthly income converts to 60,000 THB, 5,000 THB less than the minimum required, you would only need the difference between that i.e. 60,000 x 12, and the 800,000 THB target, which is the equivalent of 80,000 THB in the bank. I am not an expert in these matters so I can’t advise you on the status of superannuation lump sum in qualifying you for the 800,000 THB required but if you have the opportunity to mix income and cash then it may not be necessary to explore that option. Once you are over here then you will need to have that extra “make-up” money in a Thai bank but you’d want more than that here for emergencies anyway. Maybe more qualified reader will pick up on this thread and provide more clarifying information.
If you are single then once over here formally marry a Thai lady and apply for a one-year non-immigrant visa “O” (based on marriage) – incorrectly called a Marriage Visa”. The financial requirements are then 40,000 THB a month income or a bank balance or mixed income/bank balance of 400,000 THB. Problem solved. Only joking 🙂
The very best of luck and I hope all goes smoothly for your move over here.
Tony
For Stuart,
Would you mind sharing who you found in Canberra to bind and notarise.
thanks
Hi Michael,
The notary I used was Jevard Seck – 0414599019. Good luck.
Stuart.
Hi Tony, many thanks for the stories so far. I’m in a similar position to you and will be leaving Canberra in the near future for the sunny climes of Thailand. I have a quick question for you. The Thai Embassy in CBA is insisting that the 4 sets of visa docs are bound, in addition to being notorised. Did you find someone in CBA to undertake this service? Tks for your assistance.
Cheers, Stuart.
Wow. You’re the third reader that I know of from Canberra either in or looking to move to Thailand. It wouldn’t be something to do with the weather would it! I can’t help you with the binding question I’m sorry. It wasn’t a needed when I went through the process (2013) and must be a new requirement as another reader got her visa 12 months ago and that didn’t seem to be a needed then either. I would have thought any of the copy shops would bind the documents for you. Do you have any uni friends. They are always getting things bound.
Good luck with the visa and your move to Thailand. Let me know how you go.
Tony
Tks for the quick response Tony. I’ve found someone who will bind & notorise, so hopefully the embassy will be satisfied. If you had your time over again, is there anything you would have done differently or brought with you from CBA [or left behind :)] ?
Cheers.
Hi Stuart. Sorry I missed the second part of your comment.
Are you talking about what I would have put in my suitcase or the shipping container? There’s not a lot I have missed that you can’t find in Thailand, although sometimes it can be a challenge. In the suitcase I would have put some dried cooking herbs (if you are into cooking). They are around but items like rosemary are a mystery here. White shoe polish! King sized bedding sets. Top sheets aren’t readily available here and when they are the colours are often “bright”. Wine would go in the container by the caseload if I had an arrangement to get it through customs without inspection. I was a keen wine drinker in Australia and have mostly given it up here. It pains me to pay three times the cost of a bottle back home. I honestly can’t think of anything else that I feel I am missing out on here. If I think of anything else I will let you know.
Tony
Hi Tony!
Today I applied for my non immigrant “O” visa for the purpose of retirement. Here’s my story!
I originally came here last May on a multiple entry tourist visa obtained in the USA. I knew I wanted to retire here so today I went to the Immgration office in Chiang Mai (the old one by the airport). In order to obtain a retirement visa you must first convert your tourist visa to a 90 day non immigrant “O” visa. The requirements are:
1. You must have at least 18 months left on your passport.
2. You must be at least 50 years old.
3. You need a certified (notarized) letter from your embassy stating either your monthly income of ฿65,000 per month or a bank book from a Thai bank showing ฿800,000 for at least 2 months deposited or a combination of both that meets these requirements.
4. A copy of your lease.
5. Copies of the front page of your passport, all entry stamps to Thailand and a copy of your departure card.
6. ฿2,000
7. The document entitled “Chang of Visa”.
8. 2 passport type photos. (They are the longer ones that fit into the space on the Change of Visa document.
You must have 2 copies of all documents and sign all of them. Every page!
You are instructed to come back after exactly 3 weeks (They will tell you the day and time and you do not have to get a number, you just come up to the counter) to find out if you have been cleared to obtain the Visa and then your passport gets stamped. (You keep your passport in the meantime). This Visa is good for 90 days which after you can apply for a year extension for the purpose of retirement! You MUST have at least 3 weeks left on your current tourist visa stamp to apply.
All and all it was a very simple process. I hope it’s approved!!!!
Kim
Hello!
I’m going to Chiang Mai immigration to get my first Non Immigrant O stamp for retirement (currently here on tourist visa). Will I receive my stamp while I wait or do I have to come back later?
ps Your blog is fantastic!!!
Hi Kim. I can only report on my situation which was to extend a visa by 12 months. In that case I could either pay for an express service and get the stamp the same day (later that day not straight away) or get an “application in process” stamp and get the visa stamp one month later.
Please let me know how it works for you so other people get a better understanding of the process.
Cheers and good luck.
Tony
Thanks! I will let you know
90 day reporting can now be done over the internet.
Go to thai immigration website.
Thanks Arie. I knew about that but was going to wait until I completed my 90 day report later this month so that I could update the blog with a real experience. I appreciate you contributing to the blog. Keep ’em coming. Cheers. Tony
It is true that Thai Immigration has an online facility for filing 90 Day Police Reports, up and running since April 2015. However, over the prior month, I have yet to access the site without first being warned that the site’s ‘certificate’ is out of date – an invitation to hackers, in other words, to steal any private information included in your application. This may not happen often, and it may not happen to you, but when it does, the price is a real killer.
As a result, until such time as Thai Immigration gets its online facility and ‘certificate’ up to speed, the only safe and viable option other than wasting a day visiting/waiting around Thai Immigration is to file the 90 Day Police Report by ‘registered mail.’ No, your passport is not included in the mailing, just photocopies of certain pages in your passport.
The primary issue here is determining the ‘official’ registered mail mailing address to send the package to. It is not included on any official Internet site I’ve found.
However, I’ve cross-verified the Chiang Mai address 3 ways, including a phone call [053277510] to Chiang Mai Immigration at Promenada, and feel fairly confident this is the correct address, which I’ll be verifying with my own 90 Day Police Report ‘registered mail’ attempt in another 7 days:
Chiang Mai Immigration Office
71 Moo 3
Tambon Suthep
Amphoe Mueang
Chiang Mai
50200
I hope this helps…
Thanks for the additional information Robert. This topic is getting quite a collection of useful comments so I am about to update it to make everyone’s contributions more accessible. Cheers Tony
Hi Tony,
Great website with lots of valuable info for newbies.
I have a Type O Non Immigrant 12 month multiple entry visa. I have made 2 trips back to Brissy, but both times on re- entry, there was only a 3 month valid stay stay. Not 12 months, as you state. Unless that happens right at the end?
Also, i am planning to apply for my Retirement visa here in CM. Do you know how long the Embassy Stat Dec for Income proof is valid? Is it 30 days, 3 months or 12 months?
I was under the impression the Brisbane consular office shut down last year.
And as a tip, I got a Travel Money Card. CBA. I can transfer funds into it from my Savings Acc. Then withdraw here in CM at any bank, getting the TT rate. Higher than the cash rate.
Thanks again. Kev
Cheers Kevin. Your comment is much appreciated.
Thanks also for your contribution to the Visa information section. My blog is mostly geared to record my living in Thailand rather than being a definitive information resource so it is only through people like yourself making comments that this area is kept semi-relevant. It is hard to keep up to date with things like visa changes unless you in the business. I presume your visa was obtained outside of Thailand? Did you get an additional 3 months extension to the expiry date each time you returned, in other words you ended with a six month extension?
I think I have read that the income stat dec is good for 30 days but I wouldn’t bank on my recall. I suggest you check out thaivisa.com, which is far more lively and relevant on topics like this. It is a good resource if you can ignore the endless whinging that seems to break the flow of every post. If you wouldn’t mind reporting back on any outcome I would be grateful as that might help others.
Thanks again Kevin.
Thanks for the tip about Travel Card too. I used it when holidaying in Thailand but haven’t since I retired here. I will investigate further.
hi all , I am thinking of applying a retirement visa as I have a lovely girlfriend there in bkk but has a house in kalasin and thinking about staying with her pending retirement visa ,
my question is bc I am on a disability pension and no hope of getting work there bc of constant back pain , just wondering if any of you good people have any idea or knowledge in regards to not losing it if I am successful with the retirement visa and stay in thailand , also I just have enough funds to funds to cover the required 800.000 baht for the application plus few dollars to keep for whatever happens..is it best to apply here in Australia or is it better to take the paper work required and apply there in bkk or sakhon nakhon , as I am still not divorced yet and don’t intend to so I wont have to sell house and do settelemnt here bc I would like to keep things as they are..
any feed back will much appreciated ..
cheers jamal..
Tony or anyone The 800000 THB held in Thai bank account What happens to this money if account holder should die . Thanks
Hi Derek. Once you get your visa you can whatever you want with the 800,000 THB until next time. It isn’t locked away.
If you die the money in your Thai bank account/s is treated as an asset under the terms of your will in the same way as any other bank account/asset. Just make sure your executor knows that you have money in Thailand.
If you need to make a Thai will talk to Sebastian at Isaan Lawyers. You’ll find them in the recommendations in “information” tab of my blog.
I hope this helps.
Tony
Thanks for that Tony and looking forward to your next blog Melbourne very cold at moment
Hi Tony,
My wife and I are really loving your ongoing adventures building that gorgeous house in Issan. We really look forward to you weekly updates and appreciate your eye for detail, alongside all the tender loving care you and Gaun are investing in your new place. We noticed this comment in the latest update, the Week 17 update:
“The Week 18 update will be one to look out for if you want more information as to DeKu’s product, as we are flying to Bangkok on Tuesday with three main tasks on our list. I have to renew my Retirement Visa by 25 March, and that requires me to get a statutory declaration from the Australian embassy verifying that my income exceeds 800,000 THB per annum. You can read about the Retirement Visa in huge detail HERE.”
We are curious as to why you have to ‘renew’ your ‘O-A Retirement Visa as versus simply availing yourself of its delightful built-in ‘automatic extension’ feature, which you have already triggered once by exiting Thailand either by land or air and then returning.
Are you having to obtain a statutory declaration of your income from the Aussie Embassy in order to ‘renew’ your ‘O-A Retirement Visa’ on 25 March because you will not be able to ‘exit/re-enter Thailand’ prior to 25 March – with a ‘Re-Entry Permit Stamp’ purchased from Thai Immigration prior to departure – in order to trigger the ‘automatic extension’ of your O-A Visa for another 365 days via another ‘permission to stay’ ‘Re-Entry Stamp,’ stamped in either your passport or on your ‘Departure/Arrival Card’ upon your return to Thailand?
Or are you having to ‘renew’ your O-A Retirement Visa on 25 March because you have discovered some limitation or another at Thai Immigration that controls that otherwise delightful feature/process, as e.g., some limitation on the number of ‘Re-Entry Stamp’ ‘automatic extensions’ allowed by Thai Immigration?
Thanking you in advance for any additional information, and we wish you the best of luck with Deku. The next time you and your lovely wife Gaun are in Chiang Mai with a little spare time, please let us know a little in advance – and we’ll try to arrange to get together, either for a beer, coffee, or a meal, your choice but our treat.
Thank you,
Bob and Cindy
Chiang Mai
Thank you so much for your comments Bob. I am very happy with the house and can’t wait to furnish it and start enjoying it for real.
My understanding on the visa question is that you only get automatic 12 month renewal opportunities during the initial 12 months period. I left Thailand to visit Hong Kong during my extension period and the re-entry stamp duplicated the previous expiry date i.e. no further extension.
I am now going through the visa renewal process requiring a verification of income in my case rather than money in the bank as my 800,000 THB is now mostly in AAC blocks!
If you have any update to share on the renewal process please let me know.
We will certainly be visiting Chiang Mai again once the house is finished and would really enjoy meeting you both. It’s a definite date.
Cheers Tony and Gaun
Thanks Tony,
Cindy and I, alongside our friends and neighbors here in Chiang Mai, really appreciate your boots on the ground experience.
Your thoughts tie together with all the info we’ve collected from different people here. In fact, your experience provides the missing common denominator that rationalizes all the other feedback we’ve received from various expats. To wit: The new O-A Retirement Visa with a (M)ultiple Entry stamp that can only be obtained in one’s home country enables at most up to two (2) years without having to go through the cumbersome ‘renewal process’ with Thai Immigration.
Let’s hope Thai Immigration extends the concept out to 3, 4, 5 years as they spoke of doing at the Chiang Mai La Meridien Expat Club meeting last 22 October 2014.
BTW, here’s a hotlink to videos of that entire meeting: http://www.chiangmaiexpatsclub.com/immigration-2014/
Thank you Tony and Guan –
May you two have much Joy and Happiness as the result of your up-coming Official Marriage!
Bob and Cindy
Hi Bob. Always great to get such positive feedback from you.
I am hoping the renewal goes smoothly. It is always a slightly nervous time as it brings home the fact that we are only guests in Thailand and our whole future is based on some bureaucratic process every 12 months. I do have a bottle of bubbly in the fridge in the expectation of a positive result however!
A longer visa period would be warmly welcomed by the expat community. We bring so many economic benefits to the country that you’d think that it would make sense to make it easier for us to stay here.
Thank you for your kind comment on the “formal” marriage. Gaun never talks about it but I think she will be happy to have a registered marriage in place. It gives her security and I think will be the first of such arrangements in the family. Many Thais never bother with the paperwork side of marriage once they have done the social ceremony.
Good to hear from you.
Tony
Tony – A delightfully precise and most literate account with none of the weasel words that too often invade most issues these days. Thank you ever so much for all your good and much needed work.
My hunch is the automatic 365 ‘extension’ of O-A Retirement Visas with “M” Stamps obtained outside Thailand, presumably only in one’s home country, is a test program that’s been running 2 going on 3 years. My hunch is that this test is being kept low key as officials measure the results and ‘learn’ what to expect. Ergo, not many folks [even at Chiang Mai Immigration] are qualified to really discuss the program in detail.
I attended a Chiang Mai Expat meeting at the Meridian on 22 October 2014, with presentations by Regional and Chiang Mai Immigration officials, made to roughly 160 expats, and no mention was made of this new feature/benefit. Not by any of the speakers from Thai Immigration, nor by anyone in the audience. However, Chiang Mai officials did embellish the through-put overload issues their offices are suffering, as well as their desire to develop innovative solutions. Thai Immigration knows it has efficiency issues, and knows solutions are much needed. It’s not a profit-making enterprise, and so taking risks is not rewarded. Hence, I assume the reason for the very low key approach to the new automatic extension feature. I suspect that even basic features have morphed a bit as the testing has evolved, alongside their internal procedures.
As someone has pointed out, the automatic one year ‘extension’ of the underlying O-A Retirement Visa [which grants the holder ‘Permission to Enter’country] with each re-entry into Thailand, essentially piggy-backs the ‘Permission to Stay” stamping process upon each re-entry. Hopefully this new efficiency feature will eventually run unchanged and in perpetuity. And hopefully that process will be applied to O-A Retirement Visas obtained inside Thailand, as well as 3rd party countries like Laos, Myanmar, and Cambodia.
I’ve not yet found any expats with this delightful new innovation who do not have O-A Retirement Visas awarded initially in their home country. Folks who entered on ‘Tourist Visas’ or ‘O Visas’and then reapplied for O-A Retirement Visas here in Thailand do not seem to have any automatic extension benefits. Not do expats who were granted their O-A Retirement Visas in their home countries many years back. My wife and I were granted our O-A Retirement Visas with a “S” Single Entry Stamp back in 2007, and we have had to physically re-apply for extending those visas each and every year at Chiang Mai Immigration, alongside new Proof of Income and payment of application fees. If the new automatic extension program works out, I suspect Thai Immigration will develop a process for migrating existing older O-A Retirement Visas to the automatic extension feature.
As it stands, it looks like the only way that we holders of much older O-A Retirement Visas can avail ourselves of the new automatic extension feature is to trek back to our home country and apply for a whole new visa. Although, we do know of one instance 3 years back where an American expat obtained an O-A Retirement Visa through the Thai Embassy in Vientiane Laos. We wonder if this is now standard practice?
If you have any additional information or perspective to add, we’d love to hear from you.
Thanks loads once again, and bless you for all the good and delightful work you have volunteered to us expats and potential expats all around the world…
Bob and Cindy
I found my extensive notes from the 22 October 2014 Immigration presentation at the Meridien Hotel and in retrospect noticed several important points. I realize this is all hearsay with all the limitations inherent to hearsay, but the comments at that formal presentation serve at least to paint a broader narrative that may be useful in understanding how the O-A Retirement Visa process works, at least in Chiang Mai.
A Regional Immigration officer in casual attire explained that total immigration volume in Chiang Mai has been doubling every 2 years. A few steps have already been implemented to alleviate through-put issues, as e.g., separating the processing of non-employment visa holders from processing for employment visa holders. A new building is planned but that will require at least another 2 years to complete. As well, it may one day be possible to process 90 Day Police Reports electronically with something in the nature of an electronic banking card at convenience stores like 7-Eleven. Immigration realizes the queue in Chiang Mai is a major issue, and has established a ‘Committee on the Queue’ which hopes to stabilize the queue situation by 2014 year-end.
A uniformed Chiang Mai Immigration official explained that new regulations took effect on 30 June 2014. A Police Colonel indicated that new Regulations 327/2557 were implemented 29 August 2014, with the primary objective of weeding out “bad people” from entering the Kingdom.
A uniformed high-ranking female official from Chiang Mai Immigration told the audience that while the O-A Retirement Visa currently has a 365 day term, Immigration is working on plans to extend that term to 2, 3, or even 5 years in the future. Those comments lend some credence to the narrative that the new automatic extension feature of some O-A Retirement Visas issued during the prior 2-3 years is in an experimental and/or testing phase, which may explain some of the confusion among expats and Immigration officials about the precise way that feature functions. This may explain, for example, the seeming ongoing ambiguity of precisely how many times these O-A Retirement Visas can automatically extend, both during the initial one year period and subsequently. In other words, the final parameters of those features may still be in the somewhat nebulous experimental/testing work-in-process queue.
According to this official, a Tourist Visa is currently ‘convertible’ to an O-A Retirement Visa with proper application and payment of a Baht 2,000 fee. She itemized all that is required to process an O-A Retirement Visa application, but did not mention an automatic extension feature, nor did any attendee in the audience ask any questions about the new automatic extension feature. Again, lending some credence to the proposition this feature is part of a new program in an experimental and/or testing phase. This official told the audience that all original overseas paperwork used to initially apply for an O-A Retirement Visa should be brought to the first ‘renewal’ session so that Chiang Mai Immigration can take a copy.
During a slide presentation at the end of the presentation, we learned that O-A Retirement Visa volume is roughly twice that of Tourist Visa volume and that 90 Day Police Report volume is about the same as O-A Retirement Visa volume, as is Re-Entry Permit volume.
If anyone has any additional observations that provide additional clarity in what is obviously a dynamic O-A Retirement Visa process, my wife and I, alongside all O-A Retirement Visa holders, would be most appreciative receiving your thoughts.
Thanks,
Bob and Cindy
Bob and Cindy. It is me who should be thanking you for a wonderful contribution to this section of the blog. Some of the issues being addressed, whether short or longer term, will be most welcome. Of course the possibility of an extended retirement visa is the most exciting tease. I do think we serious farang residents bring with us many economic benefits to the country and should be “recognised” with a less onerous visa system. My own house build in a small Isaan village will end up putting well over 2 million into mostly the local economy, money that wouldn’t be in circulation otherwise.
I do hope you continue to keep me in mind with any updates you feel are appropriate to share. The blog is expanding its readership all the time and has gone from an electronic diary for family and friends into quite a broadly read site. Your contributions will be widely read.
Many thanks again.
Tony
Tony, thanks for your kind words.
FYI and for the information of all other interested expats, the Chiang Mai Expat Club has just now posted online the complete video of the 22 October 2014 Thai Immigration presentation at the Chiang Mai Meridien Hotel – that I referenced above:
http://www.chiangmaiexpatsclub.com/immigration-2014/
Thank you for that. A great resource added to the blog. Much appreciated.
I am confused. There are 12 months in a year and my income is about $2300 US which is about 70,000 baht. 800,000 baht in a thai bank is the same as 65,000 baht needed per month. Why did you calculate based on 10 months?
Eric. Thank you for pointing this out and you are quite right. It is 65,000 THB a month income or a deposit of 800,000 THB. I have amended the post and taken out the conversion to Aussie dollars, which isn’t relevant to many of my readers these days. Also the exchange rate is woeful with the baht being so strong against most other currencies, that it is totally out of date. I appreciate you getting in contact. Cheers Tony
Jenny- You might want your pension sent in AUS dollars to your Thai bank and get the conversion done here for a better rate…Do you know Tony?
Hi Clay
You can choose to have it still paid into your Australian account and then take money out at the ATM in Thailand and put it in your Thai account and just pay ATM fees. Or Centrelink can send it to a Thai bank at Reserve Bank rates in thai baht. I think that would be more expensive. Bob does the first option.
Actually I think I will ring Centrelink and get some more information about it all. Last time I spoke to them I didn’t get all the details about that.
It would be good to hear what others do and the transfer costs/bank charges involved.
Jenny
Hi Clay/Jenny – there are 3 issues you need to sort regarding transferring money from an Aust bank to a Thai bank. First is the exchange rate – they all seem to have their own rate and so far St George has given me the best consistently (I am testing 3). Second is the charge from your bank in Aus; and third is the charge from the Thai bank. Given one/both banks involved in my previous transfers have ‘raped’ me in the past, I now go to the ATM outside my Thai bank and take out cash from Aust bank and walk it inside and deposit into my Thai account. Same exchange rate, but no bank transfer fees (either one) for an international bank transfer. I am currently checking out Citibank’s claim that I could transfer from an Aust Citibank account to a Thai Citibank account for no fee. If true, then the next issue will become how much they charge to transfer from Thai Citibank to another Thai bank, or to pay a local bill on-line. Until then I am reluctant to pay $20-30 to transfer money internationally when I can do it from an ATM for free. Especially given that in Aus a transfer from one bank to another is fee free.
After going through all the options I could think of, there are two ‘best’ ways to get cash from an Aust bank to myself here in Thailand. Number 1 is to use Citibank in Aus (they do not charge for International TT) and transfer the money in $Aus to my Thai Bank (SCB). SCB then do the exchange rate conversion from $Aus to Baht, and charge a fee of min 300 Baht and max 500 Baht. Number 2 is to use my Citibank card and withdraw cash from any local ATM – most allow up to 20,000 Baht ($770) for a fee of 180 Baht (no matter how much is withdrawn).
Use Transferwise – almost the best rate I’ve ever found (including fees). Thew downside is that it takes a few days to be deposited. The next best alternative is to get your bank to send it to your Thai bank in Australian dollars, not Thai baht. The Thai bank will then convert it at their best rate, which will be way better than having your Australian bank do the conversion
Thanks David.
I have used both the options you discuss. Transferwise were very slow to make the transfer in my case. 3 or 4 days to go from my bank to theirs and then a week to get to Thailand. The rate was good though. I believe the fee is 1.5%, which offsets some of the gain in exchange rate if it is a larger amount. I bank with the Commonwealth and they charge a flat $22.00 for an international transfer. The money arrives in my account the next day. The same day in one case.
I do what you suggest and transfer in Aussie dollars and let it get converted here. A much better rate than getting ripped off by the Commonwealth and contribute to their 9 billion dollar profit back home. I found that Bangkok Bank gives me a better Thai rate than Kasikorn Bank for what that’s worth.
Tony
Hi Tony,
Your 90 day reporting record from 5-30 minutes would be the envy of most who wait a lot longer than that.
I did my first one in December and my time there was 2 hours 18 minutes.
My next report will be by post. This method is also encouraged by immigration. I’ve spoken to a few people who do it this way, as well as opening a topic with Thai Visa. Members who have used this method seem to support it. See link below.
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/783666-chiang-mai-90-day-by-post/
Regards
Jay.
Bob and Jay. Thanks very much for your contributions to this topic. Jay, when I was in Chiang Mai the postal 90 day reporting wasn’t an option although i know it was in the past. Maybe this has changed as a result of the post-coup shake up. A much better option than waiting around. I did my first report in Udon Thani last month and I think I beat my previous record of 5 minutes. The guy didn’t even look at the paperwork. Just gave me the extension. One happy farang! Cheers. Tony
Dear Tony, thanks for the info. I am coming to Thailand in March with a view to retirement. I was advised to just get a non-immigrant 0 single entry for 3 months and then see Thai Assist to get the retirement visa done, but from what you say I should just get the 12 month OA multiple entry here in Brisbane with proof of savings, Centrelink letter etc.
I now don’t think I will need the visa company at all as I will be returning to Australia at least once (or twice) a year to visit and each time my visa will be extended another year. All I will have to do then is report my address every 90 days. Is this correct?
An expat in Chiang Mai told me he used Thai Assist to get his retirement visa and they also do the reporting for him, he just drops in his passport. I don’t know what they charged for the visa but they charge a fee also for the reporting. But I think I can do all this on my own.
I will be staying in the old city in an apartment in a small soi near Chiang Mai Gate, and am very much looking forward to my new (and interesting) life there. I will actually be able to live on my pension and have money left over which is impossible to do in Australia.
Thanks for your reply.
Jenny
Hi Jenny. It sounds as if you have an exciting 2015 planned with a new life in Chiang Mai.
I am not a visa expert having just done what I needed to do to stay here and only coming across the ability to extend the AO Visa beyond the initial 12 months by luck. You are far better off getting the full OA Visa in Australia in my opinion, which gives you that ability to exit and re-enter Thailand with an automatic extension up to the expiry date as described on my blog. It involves a little bit more paperwork initially but is absolutely worth it.
I have never used a visa company to process anything over here and don’t see the need to do so unless you have a problem with filling out forms. The 90 day report is a little bit of a pain in the same way as dealing with bureaucracy anywhere in the world but it’s not difficult. Complete the government form, which you can download online, copy the relevant pages in your passport and copy your lease and you’re ready to go.
Chiang Mai immigration is woefully under resourced but the system works and the staff cope in a stressed work environment that would be closed down in Australia. Submit the correct forms and you will end up with the extension at the end of the process. I was always lucky and never had to wait more than 30 minutes. My record was 5 minutes. Remember the staff all go to lunch from 12.00 – 1.00 pm and early morning isn’t recommended. I found around 11.00 am worked well but it’s a lottery. Take a book! There’s no charge for the 90 day report.
The old town is a great place to base yourself. It is very touristy in parts especially the main roads but once you get to know the area there are lots of little sois without much traffic and heaps of eating places, cafes, massage shops and great places to hang out. Finding transport to take you outside the old town is easy. Negotiate tuk tuk prices to about 50% of the initial asking price. Find a good one that can speak a little English and get his phone number.
If there is anything I can do to help drop me an email at [email protected]. I would love to hear how you find things if you feel like letting me know.
Good luck. Tony
Jenny. I meant to say please check with the Thai embassy if anything has changed with the AO Visa and the extension option. The military have tightened up on visas since the coup but as far as I know it only related to people using the tourist visa to stay in Thailand on a semi-permanent basis. I don’t think the retirement visa has been affected. Tony
Hi Tony, Bob
Thanks for the replies to my comments.
Just a couple of points, I rang the Thai Consulate here in Brisbane and they told me all I needed to attach with my application for a Non-Immigrant 12 month multi trip was a bank statement, Centrelink letter and airline tkt copy – no mention at all of medical or criminal check (the visa price listed on the Canberra site with all the complex instructions is the same). I think I will have to ring them back and make sure. (Maybe things have changed Bob?)
Another thing – with the 12 month extension on leaving the country, how many times can I do that? I do plan on coming back to Aust every year for a visit and will remain an Australian resident for tax purposes.
The postal 3 month reporting sounds good, does anyone have their postal address or is it just the street address? I will make sure I copy forms off before I leave here, and have the right envelopes.
I have my flights booked and arrive late 15 March (not the best time of year to come weatherwise I have heard, but its just the way it has worked out)- and flight back on 15 June which I will do as it will give me a chance to come back with a near empty suitcase and bring anything back I really need (such as some of my fave books etc). If that extends me for another year, then next year I will come back to Aust in April.
I look forward to hearing more tips. Will advise what the consulate says re the medical and criminal check.
Thank you once again for all your help.
Jenny
Hi Jenny. A couple of points. I was interested to read you still intend to remain an Australian resident for tax purposes while living in Thailand. I lost that status once I left the country to set up home overseas. Annual return trips don’t override that determination. More info HERE I pay tax on my superannuation income from the first dollar with no tax-free threshold. I would be interested to hear how you intend to get around this as tax is linked to immigration and they will know you aren’t in the country for most of the year.
Just out of interest if someone is eligible for the aged pension they can only receive it if a permanent resident of Australia. If you leave the country long term at any time during the first two years of receiving the pension it will be stopped.
As far as I know, and this is supported by Jay, you can leave and return as often as you like during the initial AO 12 month period and the visa end date will be extended. Once you are in your “extended” period no further time is added if you leave the country. Remember it is not a multiple entry visa at this point so you will have to get a once only or multiple re-entry permit depending on the number of times you plan to be out of the country during the extension period. I cover this in the Visa section of the blog.
Tony
Hi Tony
Thanks for your reply. Re Australian resident – My accountant told me that if I fail to remain a resident of Australia for tax purposes that I can be taxed more heavily on interest from any savings in accounts here (I plan on leaving most of my savings here and not in a Thai Bank) and he told me to contact them. I rang the Tax Department and told them that I still wanted to be considered an Australian resident and that I would be returning here on a regular basis to visit family on holiday. They asked if I intended to work, and I said no – they made a note of it and said OK.
I do not have any superannuation or a large amount of money, just money from the sale of some property in a high interest savings account. At the moment I own no property here and my only earnings are the pension and some interest on savings. I have not done a tax return since retirement in early 2012 and do not need to do one, and will not be earning anything in Thailand.
Re pension – I have been in touch with Centrelink regarding my plans and have been told I am eligible for my pension overseas as I meet the 35 year or longer criteria. I have been in receipt of the pension for more than two years.
I also told them I plan to return on holiday each year and they were fine with that. They will pay my pension in Thai baht into a Thai bank account when I open one and advise details.
I think I have been getting confused with the O and O-A. I think I understand it now, the O multi entry 12 month is only valid for 90 day stay and you only get a 90 day stamp each time you leave within the 12 months during the visa validity – you must leave each 90 days.
The O-A 12 month multi entry gets stamped for a further 12 months each time within that first 12 months, and you have to do 90 day reporting (not leaving). Then when I do have to extend the OA, I have to get a re-entry permit each time I leave. Is all the above right?
So I suppose the thing is, get the O-A and stay as long as possible before leaving so as to get the extra 12 months, after that its over and you need to apply to extend each year?. The thing is I have only stayed in Chaing Mai for 10 days before and I was going to make the final decision about 4-6 weeks in after I get there mid-March and either way return here in mid June (bring back more stuff if staying).
In any case I am going to apply for the O-A from here. I have sent off for my criminal check and will be having a medical later this week – then I will apply direct to Canberra not the Consulate here in Brisbane. I will ring Canberra to make sure nothing has changed today.
I hope all the above is not as confusing to you as it is to me! I think I am on the right track, if not, please tell me..
Thanks
Jenny
Hi Jenny and Tony,
I have spent some years going over/through the ‘rules’ regarding becomming a non-resident for tax purposes, and the qualification rules for getting and keeping the Age Pension. From what I have learned, both of your comments are somewhat inaccurate and also somewhat true. The reality is that both ATO and CLink change their ‘determinations’ regarding residency status, based upon the individual’s circumstances and the changing Govt rules (both do it separately). ATO will not give a definitive determination but they provide guidelines, and CLink dont provide determinations (only advice). By determination I mean a ‘legally’ binding yes/no to any hypothetical situation. They both deal with definitives only and interpret the rules according to each situation at hand, and then make individual determinations (which are of course subject to appeal). There is somewhat a precedent arrangement, but overall I would say it is all a case by case arrangement when they come tomaking a ruling or determination. I would not recommend telling either of them any more than they need to be told Jenny – tell them whatever is in your best interests only – Anon the rest.
I wont got into all the details /argument publically as this subject is constantly being ‘abused’ by the Fed Govt (both sides) to try and save budget costs – but stopping retired/elderly people living overseas surely costs more (maybe private emails Jenny).
It is my opinion that, as Tony says, he has clearly ‘lost’ his Australian residency for Tax purposes (but not for CLink purposes). However, I am worried about you Jenny and my advice is that you may lose yours if you do not have and keep an established home in Australia and come ‘home’ to it regularly (1-2 times a year).Plus if you establish a new home/life in another country (as Tony clearly has) this also affects your residency determination. There is no exact scenario or definition or checklist, and there are no experts who know all the answers (qualified or not).
If the ATO determines that you have lost your residency for Tax purposes, you are then liable to pay the top marginal tax rate on every dollar you earn in interest from your savings. The Aust tax system is ‘self determined’ in that you lodge and state your situation each year – if they investigate you in some years time and decide you were wrong, you could have a big tax bill to pay (it has happened before many times).
Sorry to be the bearer of potential bad news, but I can say that you definitely can get the pension while overseas for as long as you like (given as you say you have qualified already and also qualify to go overseas forever under the 35 years in Aust rule).
However, residency for Tax purposes and for CLink purposes are two very separate issues – you can easily lose the Tax residency, but losing CLink residency is completely different. What Tony stated regarding the two year period mainly applies for eligibility to get the Age Pension, and then also applies if you have lived/worked for less than the required number of years in Aust in that the 2 year period may also apply for eligibility if/when you come back to live in Aust permanently. Again – it all depends on the individual circumstances and how ATO/CLink are ‘interpreting’ things at that time – what applies to Tony may not necessarily apply to Jenny or to Bob or to Sue etc. What I can add to perhaps ease your concerns Jenny, and perhaps of some others reading this, is that once you have ‘qualified’ for any benefit/arrangement under CLink rules, then the Govt cannot change the rules and have them affect you (it cannot be backdated) and your situation holds going forward – such as for the recent Deeming rules that took affect on Jan 1.
However, (sorry), this accepted arrangement does not apply for ATO rules changes – they cannot backdate changes (unless to cover for an obvious illegal practice) but any existing situation does not ‘hold’ – if they change the Tax rules then it affects everyone going forward.
Please understand that I am no exception to my earlier statement that there are no experts in this area – there are advisers (ATO/CLink/Acountants/Financial Advisers etc etc) who can provide help with pieces/parts, but no one knows it all.
Hope this helps you get things sorted Jenny.
Maybe send me an email otherwise we will jam up this forum – Tony can send you my email address.
Bob.
Hi Bob
Thanks for all your good advice. I am pretty right as far as my pension goes and fulfil all the necessary criteria for moving overseas.
Regarding the Australian residency for tax purposes. I am not really worried about that either. I spoke to the tax department and they are fine with everything. I am only small fry to them as I am not wealthy by any means and I don’t think they are going to worry about me.
On another note, I checked with the Embassy in Canberra and I have to supply all the paperwork as per instructions on their website and nothing has changed. I have applied for my criminal check and am having a medical in the next week or so. After I get everything back I will apply for the OA.
Another question to everyone, what about medical cover? I was hoping to just get general local area medical emergency cover in Chiang Mai. It was a question I asked of the expat club and was given some names to contact at Chiang Mai insurance companies. I have had one response to my email and local cover was not mentioned, only the very expensive international cover with a large excess.
I can take take a one year single entry travel cover which covers me for everything which is a third of the price. It expires on re-entry to Australia but if I time it right and renew each time I come back it will still be cheaper than international cover.
I have good private insurance in Australia and will suspend that for two years in case I want to come back, in which case I will not lose my cover here (I think it is mandatory to have this in later life with the way the public health system is).
Also nothing is forever, where do expats go when they get really old and infirm? Just something that occurred to me.
Jenny
Hi Jenny,
Yep – your age pension is safe – but there will be a small reduction in the amount paid. https://www.dss.gov.au/our-responsibilities/seniors/benefits-payments/pensioners-overseas-0
Glad you are OK about ATO and not worried – if you are not earning much interest then not much to worry about.
I am still working through the issues of medical insurance. My situation is that I have taken out travel insurance, as you are thinking, and I will renew each time I leave after re-visits to Aus. It covers me for major accidents or emergencies or illness (not pre-existing), including public liability, but it is not for any ongoing problems like Aus medical insurance. Medical costs here are very low, so not a problem – I recommend you look further into these options (especially the liability). Because I am ‘officially’ insured while travellling overseas by an accredited insurance company, my Aus medical insurance costs are suspended but the policy is not cancelled. This means I do not incur any lifetime loading penalties if/when I renew it upon return. Only downside is that once I am back in Aus I then have to either pay and wait 12 months before I can suspend it again, or cancel and incur the penalty if/when I restart the policy. I figure I will see how it goes and decide which way to go when I return later this year. I found local private insurance extremely expensive in Thailand -quite ridiculous given the local medical costs- so I doubt I will ever take that up. I saw a local doctor for a lengthy consultation about all of my ongoing medical issues (all minor), got new medications and open/honest advice I must say (not worried about being sued), and the all up cost was less than $50. The same amount of consultation and medications would have cost me well over $300 back in Aus. The Doctor’s fee/service part was about $20 – they supplied the medications themselves (how good is that !). One of the things I will be checking out is which are the best hospitals in the area to use if I did get seriously sick from something. But from what I have heard they would take a seriously injured ‘farang’ (say car accident) to one of the better ones (I would hope).
I think ahead a bit, but you are way ahead if me on the infirmary Jenny 🙂 I did a quick check and found this place – http://careresortchiangmai.com/index.php?viewID=2
But like most things here, it is always best to check things out locally and talk to the locals (expats).
Take care and good luck with all the preparations.
Bob.
Bob. Thank you for all the extensive amount of information you have shared in this thread. I have learnt a lot and it has added a great deal of depth to the Information section of my blog, especially for potential Aussie expats. I have been “off the air” for a couple of days but will now pass on your email to Jenny in case she wants to discuss anything in greater detail. Thank you again. Tony
Hi Bob
I knew I would lose the supplement amount on my pension so that’s OK, I wasn’t expecting to get what I get here in Australia. The dropping dollar does not help though, but even so its still cheaper to live in CM than Aust.
Medical insurance, have spent quite a few hours trying to check that one out. Last quote I got for worldwide cover was $2170 pa, with $2000 deductible (you have to spend this before being able to claim – and I don’t spend that here as I am quite healthy. I am not even sure if this is AUD or US. I suppose really its for the unexpected – accidents, etc. That’s $181 per month, which takes the shine off a bit.
I am thinking I will do the extended travel insurance option for the time being and see what else I can find out once over there. Couple of drawbacks though, it means that its null and void as soon as you re-enter Australia and you have to renew but even doing that, its still cheaper than the world wide option. The other thing is that when you come back to Aust for holidays you are not covered. But what can happen in a month? (well I suppose life can change overnight!). Do we lose Medicare or does it stay alive as long as we return on a regular basis?
I also saw that retirement resort, which looks beautiful. I sent them an email and they replied with a run down on all the costs which are completely all inclusive (not like here). Its something to keep in mind and I copied the email. Tony is going to give me your pte email so I will forward it on.
Its Ok if you are married to a Thai person as you will always be looked after, but as a single retiree you have to have a back up plan.. I am quite methodical and like to investigate everything.
Bye for now
Jenny
PS Got my criminal check, going for medical next week and after that can apply for my OA.
Jenny, just as an aside, ever thought of ebooks? You can load literally 1,000’s on a reeader, take up no space and weigh nothing
Hi Paul. I agree with your comment. I have made the transition from paper to ebooks and it is so much more versatile than lugging around a stack of “real” books especially if travelling. Finding quality English books in Thailand is not that easy even in places like Chiang Mai. Out in Isaan it is impossible. With great internet available most places downloading ebooks is so easy and quick. Tony
Hi Tony, yes I have an ereader. A handy tip someone told me too was to bring library card to download ebooks from library here.
All packed now, so much stuff! I bought an extra suitcase so have two medium sized ones now, easiser to manage than one really large one. Once I move to my sister’s will have to go through the bags yet again and take out anything I am not really going to need – I seem to have too many “essential” items.
I will check for any emails next week as my sister has a computer which I am using now. I came over to do a couple of other things on the computer so saw your comment re ereader.
If I miss your wedding, I hope you have a wonderful day and all the very best of health and happiness to you both.
Warm regards
Jenny
You need to make sure if you plan to rely on travel insurance that you are, in fact, covered. If you read the fine print of any Australian-issued policy, particularly one issued for holders of a gold or higher credit card, you are deemed to be an Australian resident and therefore covered *only if* you live more than half your time in Australia in the year or so preceding the trip for which you want coverage. Coming back to Oz for “a month or so” and taking out a new policy would not cover you under those circumstances. And remember – insurance companies will do anything to wriggle out of their obligation to pay
A far, far better option would be for your health fund to “staple” a travel policy to your “Extras” insurance cover. You keep paying in Australia, they pay out for medical anywhere in the world. Sadly I don’t think it will happen
Thanks for that reply to Paul. It is a good point.
I had travel insurance when I first arrived in Thailand as I was only planning on being here for seven months. I then decided to retire here and have since taken out private insurance through Pacific Cross in Thailand, which I wrote about HERE, rather than try to “bend” an Australian policy to suit my needs. I feel more comfortable doing this because as you say insurance companies are not necessarily the most customer focussed when it comes to payout time. I have never had to use PC so I can’t recommend them based on experience. Their premiums are far more realistic than some of the companies you find on the web and they are easy to give money to 🙂 Hopefully you will be waiting a while to get feedback on their claim performance!
Hi Jenny,
I have recently moved to Chiang Mai (retired) and Tony is right. Following Tony’s advice in the past (and others) it seemed to me that there were a lot of things that could go wrong in Thailand if I was unlucky – and especially in Chiang Mai given the Aust Embassy is in Bangkok. Having been here in Chiang Mai for a month I can say that it was definitely the right decision – clearly things can and do go wrong in the Thai bureaucracy. I think that is the best option for you to get the retirement Visa in Australia the first time – the 90 day extensions and even the annual renewal should be OK while here – but I agree that you should get it in Australia the first time.
A couple of pieces of advice from my experience:
You can lodge the Retirement Visa via mail (registered recommended) to the Canberra Embassy – the processes are all detailed here:
http://canberra.thaiembassy.org/visa.html
Click on the “Long Stay Visa for retirement” link and download the .pdf file. A couple of points to note:
You will need to see a Doctor – before mine would sign the statutory declaration that I didn’t have TB, Syphillis, Leprosy, etc. I had to have an XRay and get blood tests (legal issue I guess).
You need to get a certificate from AFP that you do not have a criminal record – you can go to this site and apply on line:
http://www.afp.gov.au/en/what-we-do/police-checks/national-police-checks.aspx
https://afpnationalpolicechecks.converga.com.au/
It says on the website that AFP only do it for ACT residents, but for Visa checks they do it for anyone (I live in NSW).
Online application – the purpose type is ‘Commonwealth Employment/Reason” – the purpose check is: “35 Overseas emplyent/visa etc.”
I will take a few weeks (as will the blood tests).
You will also need to get a bank statement printed out by the branch of your bank (suggest not a credit union) with more than the required amount in an account in your name and the document must be signed by an officer of the bank.
You do not need to get the documents notorised as it says (very expensive), but you must get them all witnessed by a JP – I found that the local council had several available JPs who are available and experienced in doing this once you have all the documents organised and prepared (take your ID with you).
You must submit the originals and your passport, and dont forget to make the number of copies they request (and keep one for yourself) – and both the originals and the copies must be witnessed by the JP.
If you are not sure what documents to also supply, then supply it and make the copies and get them all witnessed.
I have relos in Canberra so I went and lodged the application by hand at the Thai embassy – it took 3 days and passport returned with the retirement Visa inserted. If you can do the same then I suggest you do that (the mail can go astray).
Good luck and best wishes – any questions send an email/post and I will be happy to answer. Maybe we can catch up when you are here.
Cheers – Bob.
Hi Bob
I just read your email again and you must have applied for your retirement visa in Canberra very recently.
I will recheck with the Thai Consulate in both Brisbane and Canberra and make sure of the requirements. I was going to have a general medical anyway before leaving here and the police check is not a problem – but if I don’t really need to supply all that extra paperwork then I won’t.
Will post next week after I find out more.
Best
Jenny
Maz- I believe it to be you can come and go as many times in the first year as you want, each time on re-entry getting a 12 month period added. Same in the 2nd year if you get a multi-entry permit BEFORE you leave the Kingdom.
Tony-I will also be getting the O-A in the US when the time comes as the criminal check and medical clearance won’t be hard to get. The money end is easier and when 2 years are up I will just go to the US and do it again!
Thanks for your input Clay. Cheers. Tony
This article is so clear and easy to understand, thank you so much! I have 1 question as well if you do not mind me asking. You mentioned as you came back to Australia and then again to Thailand you got an automatic 12 months at re entry. How many times can this be done on an O A. I have heard a maximum of 3 times, do you know anything about this?
Hi Maz. Many thanks for your comment. I’m afraid that I can’t answer your question with any authority. I am not an expert on visas and my blog only shares the direct experiences I have had. My situation had me leaving and returning to Thailand on one occasion only within the original 12 months of the OA visa. I don’t know that if I did it again within the original OA period whether another extension would have been available on my return with a new 12 month start date. I do know that when I left the country again, this time within the “extended” visa period i.e. the next 12 months, that I had to apply for a re-entry permit before leaving the country as the extension is not for multiple use. I would hate to point you in the wrong direction on such an important subject. I only came across the OA visa “loophole” through this website http://retirecheap.asia, which is full of good information although some of it is reserved for members. Maybe there is an answer there. Sorry I can’t be of more help. Thanks again. Tony
Thank You Tony! I agree with Jay – brilliant work. Thank you for taking the time to do this. And good tip about taking a book 🙂
I’ve read plenty of articles by various people and organisations, regarding the 90 day reporting process.
Tony, without doubt, this article is by far the clearest and most concise I’ve read.
Well done !!
Thank you Jay. I am pleased you found it useful.